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2:52 am December 8, 2009
| Luke Maurits
| | Adelaide, Australia | |
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Since the main point of OHKLA is to do hybrid engine research, we want to keep everything else on the rocket as simple and off-the-shelf as possible. Let's start thinking about what non-propulsion related stuff we'll need, sticking to the bare minimum.
In order to facilitate recovery of the rocket, we'll need a GPS receiver on board and some solution for broadcasting its position to us. Would a cell phone based solution work best for this or can we achieve a lower mass by using a small radio circuit that a radio ham can receive signals from?
In order to figure out the altitude of the rocket's apogee, we'll need either an accelerometer and a simple microprocessor capable of doing some intelligent integration, some sort of barometric altimeter or perhaps both. I think we should only go with both if it is necessary to achieve decent accuracy, otherwise we should go with whatever is simplest. We could either log altitude readings onboard somehow or broadcast them live, or both. Note that I am assuming GPS won't work as an accurate accelerometer at the sorts of velocities and altitudes involved here – if this is wrong that would be great news.
We will need a power supply for both of the above. The total flight time should be quite short so a small battery should be sufficient for this.
We will need parachute(s) to ensure that these things return to Earth at safe velocities. We could try to use one large parachute for the whole thing or break the nose cone and contained avionics off from the engine after burn out and use separate parachutes for each (this is what CSXT did). We will need a mechanism for parachute release – if we could reuse our altimeter solution for this purpose, it would be excellent.
Is there anything else we will want/need?
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Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.
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4:23 am December 8, 2009
| rpulkrabek
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I'm just throwing out ideas, but what about some instruments that we can measure velocity and fuel volume? It would be nice to know what the effect of fuel is with the velocity of the rocket and even if it's possible to note how drag is affected with velocity. I'm sure there are plenty of other measurements we would be interested in too. We just have to define what we want to measure.
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4:34 am December 8, 2009
| Luke Maurits
| | Adelaide, Australia | |
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If we used an accelerometer to estimate altitude, we would also be able to estimate velocity with it (in fact, this is an essential step in the altitude estimation).
Measuring fuel levels should be possible by measuring the pressure of the N2O tank. I have no idea about what sort of electronic devices could be used to facilitate this sort of measurement, but I am sure they exist.
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Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.
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5:28 am December 8, 2009
| Rizwan
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Probably a camera on-board to record the entire flight sequence? And may be if possible with live transmission?
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6:11 am December 8, 2009
| Luke Maurits
| | Adelaide, Australia | |
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I'm of two minds on the issue of a camera. On the one hand, the footage from the apogee of the flight would be absolutely awesome and excellent promotional material. On the other hand, I doubt it would directly contribute to us learning anything useful we could apply later to CLLARE. I guess it comes down to how much mass we can spare.
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Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.
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10:24 am December 8, 2009
| noumena
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Thoughts on the GPS:
Arduino
Highly customizable and programmable. Seen nifty GPS things done with it before. There should be some kind of transmitter available. I'll start looking later tonight.
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4:46 pm December 8, 2009
| Rocket-To-The-Moon
| | Grand Forks, North Dakota, USA | |
| Member | posts 666 |
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Post edited 10:49 pm – December 8, 2009 by Rocket-To-The-Moon
I think that almost all of the data and sensors that we need are readily available and in current use with thousands of amateur rocket builders. There are obviously some differences since the data will be broadcast from over 100km away, but this is a minor challenge. CSXT used a triple redundancy inertial solution to determine its flight profile.
I think that it would be highly advantageous to have a HD camera on board for promotional purposes (for the nightly news to broadcast, youtube, ect). CSXT accelerated at 23g so I'm not sure if a normal camera would be able to survive that, but with modern solid state recording it is highly possible (especially if the acceleration direction is not parallel to the direction of lens zoom, ie, use a 45º mirror to look sideways so the camera optics are perpendicular to the acceleration).
CSXT Press Release with detailed mission profile overview.
See also (inertial sensors)
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Main Workgroups: Propulsion & Spacecraft Engineering
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12:45 am December 9, 2009
| Luke Maurits
| | Adelaide, Australia | |
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| posts 1401 |
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Rocket-To-The-Moon said:
I think that almost all of the data and sensors that we need are readily available and in current use with thousands of amateur rocket builders.
Absolutely, no question! To be clear, this list was not intended as a "list of stuff we need to design/build", rather as a "shopping list of off-the-shelf parts we should look for good deals on". Of course, if all the engine related work takes so long that some electronics savy people have enough time to build decent equipment that is smaller/cheaper/whatever than off the shelf stuff I don't think we should stop them, but it certainly won't be necessary to do that.
Thanks for the link to the Crossbow IMU page. I noticed Carmack talks about Crossbow units fairly often in his Armadillo blog, they are obviously a popular choice. Sadly there are no prices on the website. Maybe we should request quotes on some of the appropriate looking items? It's too soon to actually buy anything (not that we have enough spare cash yet anyway), but it would help us get a rough estimate of total cost for the project.
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Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.
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7:12 pm December 9, 2009
| Rocket-To-The-Moon
| | Grand Forks, North Dakota, USA | |
| Member | posts 666 |
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I think that the #1 priority should be to integrate an inertial sensor array. Without that we won't have any idea of the rocket's velocity or altitude. It would also serve to trigger the parachute (coupled with a barometric altimeter (and GPS?) for redundancy).
- We need a way to release the parachute.
- A beacon so that we can locate it after descent.
- Simple FM walkie talkie with a tone generator
- Directional antenna to home in on the signal
- GPS receiver (mostly used during descent so we know ~ where it lands)
- Record position to flash every 1/x second
- Transmit position via radio every x second
- 1080p video (solid state)
- These cameras are cheap and durable (flash memory)
This doesn't have to be hard. A big enough motor will get it to space. We just have to make sure that everything can withstand a very strong acceleration (20+g). A long slender rocket is the obvious choice, but this introduces issues of the body flexing which can result in a catastrophic failure of the structure. Some study might be necessary to eliminate any harmonics (double pendulum mass distribution???)
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Main Workgroups: Propulsion & Spacecraft Engineering
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8:12 pm December 9, 2009
| brmj
| | Rochester, New York, United States | |
| Member | posts 386 |
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http://www.linuxjournal.com/ar…..icle/10421
http://psas.pdx.edu/avionics/
Portland State Aerospace Society has a GNU/Linux powered, USB capable flight computer and sensor suite. We may want to look into using their entire software and hardware stack with minimal modifications.
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Main work groups: Propulsion (booster), Spacecraft Engineering, Computer Systems, Navigation and Guidance (software)
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9:32 pm December 9, 2009
| Luke Maurits
| | Adelaide, Australia | |
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| posts 1401 |
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I think that our best course of action now would be to find someone who knows their way around electronics, like an EE major, who would be interested in CSTART, show them Rocket's list of requirements above and Sparkfun's page (and maybe to a few other resources, like the PSAS stuff and the Arduino for inspiration) and ask them to find a set of Sparkfun products, each <=$100, which would let us build the kind of avionics system we are after. I don't know any EEs but I do know a Computer Systems Engineering graduate who may be able to help, I'll ask him about it sometime soon.
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Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.
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3:38 pm December 26, 2009
| Ichabond
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| Member | posts 4 |
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Luke Maurits said:
We will need a mechanism for parachute release – if we could reuse our altimeter solution for this purpose, it would be excellent.
Well, if the accelerometer is connected to the arduino, it wouldn't be hard at all to connect the arduino to a small explosive charge to expel the parachute, as the acceleration will obviously go to negative, as it will accelerate downwards, at this point the parachute has to be deployed.
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6:32 pm December 26, 2009
| Luke Maurits
| | Adelaide, Australia | |
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| posts 1401 |
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Acceleration will go negative the moment the engine stops burning, and this will be an appropriate time to release the chute for the booster component, but the nosecone with the payload will of course continue to rise on a ballistic trajectory after this, with negative acceleration the whole time. We will want to relesae its chute at its apogee, which will be when its vertical velocity hits zero – but filtering and integrating the accelerometer signal to get velocity measurements will make this easy to detect too.
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Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.
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