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7:52 am
November 19, 2009


Logan

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Well it seems Luke has locked the only thread on here so let me make one people can comment on.

I think the general idea so far is a semi pressurized cabin at about 0.7 atm utilizing a carbon scrubber/oxygen injection system that I'd outlined previously.

As far as including plants? I think the accelerative force that we were talking about was something like 3gs so my question is, can plants survive that accelerative force? is there enough room? Is the oxygen that they provide going to be enough to keep our Redditnaut alive for 10ish  days? etc.

Now as far as the space suit, do we want to buy an older off the shelf one, or take this opportunity to design our own?  I'm a fan for trying something that hasn't been done yet, like one of these newer suits that provide 'atmospheric' pressure via tension in the suit's material.

For food/feeding system what I had in mind was like… a liquid dietary supplement that would cover all of the Redditnaut's basic needs (water and food/nutrients) and would be contained in an elastic sack(s) connected to a feeding tube with a sort of valve like on inflatable mattresses or inner tubes.  The kind where when you got to blow them up you have to bite down.  Same idea but just reversed.  The elastic sack would provide pressure in the system, and when the Redditnaut got hungry/thirsty they could just bite down/apply pressure and it'd flow into their mouth.  Also there could be different ones containing different things if necessary.

Also, is how big of a concern is cosmic radiation going to be?

8:12 am
November 19, 2009


brmj

Rochester, New York, United States

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"As far as including plants? I think the accelerative force that we were talking about was something like 3gs so my question is, can plants survive that accelerative force? is there enough room? Is the oxygen that they provide going to be enough to keep our Redditnaut alive for 10ish  days? etc."

I think plants are just about the worst possible aproach on this particular mission. It won't be a particularly long duration mission and the CM is goint to be tiny. If we do a moon base or something latter on, they might be a good idea, but not for this.

On the radiation issue, it s good to keep in mind that sheilding the space craft well would be enourmously benificial to the computers as well. If we do a good job on the radiation sheilding, we will be able to use non-hardened CPUs, which is a good thing for many reasons. This company has some shiny new nanotech radiation shielding material that ought to be considerably lighter than the equivelent traditional sheilding. We'd have to make sure it blocks the types of radiation or space craft is likely to encounter, though.

Main work groups: Propulsion (booster), Spacecraft Engineering, Computer Systems, Navigation and Guidance (software)

9:39 am
November 19, 2009


Rocket-To-The-Moon

Grand Forks, North Dakota, USA

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brmj said:

I think plants are just about the worst possible aproach on this particular mission. It won't be a particularly long duration mission and the CM is goint to be tiny. If we do a moon base or something latter on, they might be a good idea, but not for this.


If the adequate amount of plants weighs less (mass, you know what I mean) than a similar CO2 scrubber then it might at least be something to look into. I can see some problems though, such as when we depressurize the CM for up to 24 hours during the landing. Or if the plants die unexpectedly.

I'll try to dig up some NASA info on this topic.

Main Workgroups: Propulsion & Spacecraft Engineering

9:55 am
November 19, 2009


Rocket-To-The-Moon

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Here are a few links on plant based life support systems:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C…..ort_System

http://www.permanent.com/s-bios3.htm

http://quest.nasa.gov/ltc/farm…..perts.html

And one on a more typical system:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E…..ort_System

Interesting numbers from this last one:

A crewmember of typical size requires approximately 5 kg (total) of food, water, and oxygen per day to perform the standard activities on a space mission, and outputs a similar amount in the form of waste solids, waste liquids, and carbon dioxide.[2] The mass breakdown of these metabolic parameters is as follows: 0.84 kg of oxygen, 0.62 kg of food, and 3.52 kg of water consumed, converted through the body's physiological processes to 0.11 kg of solid wastes, 3.87 kg of liquid wastes, and 1.00 kg of carbon dioxide produced.

They also mention that most vehicles are maintained at 101.3 kPa, but I don't see a reason why we can't go for .7atm.

Main Workgroups: Propulsion & Spacecraft Engineering

4:49 pm
November 19, 2009


Logan

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Post edited 10:57 pm – November 19, 2009 by Logan


brmj said:

I think plants are just about the worst possible aproach on this particular mission. It won't be a particularly long duration mission and the CM is goint to be tiny. If we do a moon base or something latter on, they might be a good idea, but not for this.


I agree with you on this one.  I think for this short of a mission we shouldn't focus on designing a Controlled Ecological Life Support System (CELSS).  However, if we continue to move towards more space oriented goals, such as maybe a Space Station, or a permanent Lunar base that it would be something worth looking into.

I was thinking about this last night and what I'd come up with is a sealed, pressurized cabinet containing what would be two 12L scuba tanks of pure oxygen and one 12L tank of regular atmospheric gas.  The cabinet should be pressurized with probably a non reactive noble gas, like argon (which is also sometimes used in fire suppression). The only thing connecting the tanks to outside of the cabinet is computer controlled valves.  An sensor in the cabin detects when atmosphere/oxygen levels dip and inject fresh oxygen while the Redditnaut breathes through a Carbon Dioxide scrubber, and after when the cabin depressurizes and needs repressurized, the 12L tank containing regular atmospheric gas should be more than enough to refill the module more than once.

The next thing that I think that majorly needs to be figured out is the space suit so we can figure out how to incorporate it into our system.  One thought I had is if we can get sponsorship/cooperate with one of the groups developing the new space suit, maybe we can get them to let us try out one of theirs?

7:32 am
January 11, 2010


maciejm

Australia

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Post edited 1:35 pm – January 11, 2010 by maciejm


Just as others, I believe plants can NOT be used, very unreliable and hard in maintenance.

Food:

I think dry food and vacuum packed food is a great solution.
Vacuum packed food can last without refrigeration for long time and it has light packaging (in this situation weight reduction is essential).

Dried food is light, everything can be dried and later rehydrated or consumed dry. You can turn everything in a cracker or a chip (apples, beans etc…) creating high in nutrition, tasty, easy to preserve and light meal. Glass of water is a great complement.

Maybe it is funny, but it is important to reduce food types that cause intestinal gases, I dont think it would be pleasant to stay for 10 days in a stinky capsule, and H2S can be flamable/explosive in sertain conditions.

9:34 am
January 11, 2010


brmj

Rochester, New York, United States

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Those are some good thoughts on the food. One other consideration ought to be minimizing the crumbs, since they are likely to be annoying in microgravity. Having a filter to capture them on a fan or similar might be sufficient to deal with that, though.

Main work groups: Propulsion (booster), Spacecraft Engineering, Computer Systems, Navigation and Guidance (software)

6:59 pm
January 11, 2010


maciejm

Australia

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Good point.
But I believe that basic filter will do as long as you have air circulation. It is also possible to fill the food with preservatives, 10 day trips wouldn't influence crews health. Just like MC Donald's burger that doesn't deteriorate in the back seat of the car for days :). There is few that can do the job.
Also maybe food as paste in aluminum tubes that can be squeezed like tooth paste. Appropriate water content, tasty, but clean.
I think the best would be to mix few types and this way provide many different food textures and flavors.
The best of it all is that there are some products that you can buy off the shelf that would match our requirements, reducing cost significantly.

-Long lasting

-Nutritious (high in protein and energy)

-Ready to consume

-Clean

-Easy to digest

-Reduced odors

-Light weight packaging 

Did i miss anything?

12:19 am
January 24, 2010


maciejm

Australia

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I have been looking around for products that can be bought off the shelf and used directly or after some repackaging.

I would like to take on this part of LIFE SUPPORT SYSTEMS. I used to work as a chef for a few years and I have extensive knowledge of food production and storage methods as well as nutritional value of raw and processed ingredients. I also have some education in microbiology and biochemistry. It will take me a while, but I can create a 10 day menu (5 meals and snacs) that would be suitable for the journey fulfilling required characteristics.

The other parts of life support systems are more complicated than I expected and require more of mechanical engineering knowledge.

Maciej

12:37 am
January 24, 2010


Luke Maurits

Adelaide, Australia

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maciejm said:

It will take me a while, but I can create a 10 day menu (5 meals and snacs) that would be suitable for the journey fulfilling required characteristics.


This would be a great contribution. :)  I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.

6:16 am
April 23, 2010


Kurouma

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Post edited 6:23 am – April 23, 2010 by Kurouma


Plants are an interesting idea, but people have it right here in saying that they're impractical for the small scale project this will be – BUT I think that biological atmosphere control becomes more feasible at smaller scales than most realise.

Chorella stack array

I wouldn't suggest plants per se, but rather if this is for atmosphere control purposes then algae are the way to go. They are small, efficient, and quite durable. The Russian BIOS-3 in Siberia used 8m² of exposed Chorella sp. per person for CO2 scrubbing & oxygenation. This might seem like a large area, but there's no need to restrict it to a single plane in space – imagine a vertical stack of eight 1m² of Chorella, sandwiched between transparent, permeable plates, with fluorescent growth lamps between them.

 

Pros

Atmospheric regen rate controllable by lamp intensity

Indefinite lifetime – no chemical scrubs or filters to replace

Humidifies atmosphere as a byproduct of photosynthesis – condenser can collect for consumption?

Dilute human waste can be recycled by using as a growth medium

With selected species, excess algae can be prepared for consumption (very nutrient rich)

Healthy algal populations are simple to maintain compared to other plants

 

Cons

Takes up volume, mass. (how might this compare to oxygen tanks/scrubber/rebreather equip?)

Requires constant voltage to growth lamps

Sensitive to damage?

Population of algae may be sensitive to radiation, unreliable source

Production of oxygen not as precise as chemical methods, more variable (dependent on algal metabolic rates)?

 

Obviously experiments need to be done to actually calibrate the rate of photosynthesis of 1m² of Chorella or similar to see how this compares with the oxygen demands of a spacefaring human (0.84kg/day, thanks to Rocket-To-The-Moon's research).

I think while CSTART's initial projects must invariably use inorganic means for maintaining atmosphere, even the first few intermediate missions would greatly benefit from this stack array given the benefits of oxygen, water, waste recycling and potentially food at the expense

of electricity and some volume – we don't even need to figure out how to maintain an entire CELSS; algae are easier than sea monkeys.

Even if they aren't used directly, or have restricted application, functional units could later form an active part of a more fully integrated, dynamic biological life support system.

Thoughts?

Kurouma

 

EDIT: When I said algae are efficient, I meant compared to other plants, which do not photosynthesise with all of their cells. Algae are single-celled so any atmosphere unit based off them has biomass that is 100% photosynthetic.

6:43 am
April 23, 2010


Luke Maurits

Adelaide, Australia

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Thanks a lot for a nice amount of detailed and interesting material!

I can't admit to knowing an awful lot about biological life support (biology in general is my scientific weakness, although I'm working on that), but it seems to me like this sort of technology would be best suited to larger vessels like space stations (not necessarily large space stations, even for something like Salyut it would be appropriate), rather than the small one-person capsule we're currently envisaging for CLLARE (certainly this is the case for anything involving 8 square metres of exposed materal, unless we were to somehow grow it in a Peano curve somehow).

In those large applications, I can certainly see it being preferable to mechanical solutions.

Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.

7:39 am
April 23, 2010


Kurouma

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You're welcome! As part of a year-long work project last year I did a research report on how humans life might be sustained on Mars, I guess the application is pretty similar with spacecraft.

Yes, agreed, fractal arrangement of the algae plates would increase the functional area per unit volume greatly. There'd be an efficiency balance point between packing density and maintaining good growth lamp illumination somewhere.

Also unit volume efficiency could be increased by housing it in a section of the spacecraft with artificially increased CO2 partial pressure, then photosynthesis rates increase. You could achieve this thought pumps and filters or probably even through passive selectively permeable membranes.

Anyway, yeah. This can't really be applied on CLLAIRE but if ever there is a small station/semipermanent craft then it would be good. I think even a small test craft launched into orbit could house a tiny replica of the unit for an invaluable feasibility study, see how effectively we can actually control the atmosphere of a spaceship.

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