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7:04 am February 17, 2010
| maciejm
| | Australia | |
| Member | posts 21 | |
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Hello. I haven't been writing much, because I had no time, but I was tasting some dried foods and thinking about how would it be organized.
I came out with quite good idea when i was watching ISS meals time. They had many problems with eating. Messy and non stimulating.
I would propose that food should be made to be a bite size ball. Outside would be crispy and crunchy and inside filled with food that intended to be eaten. These balls could be stored in vacuumed bag. Just like that we reduce eating time, we make meals pleasurable and clean.
The alternative would include dried fruits, pastes, crackers. That would be practical, but non stimulating and a bit more messy.
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8:15 am February 17, 2010
| Luke Maurits
| | Adelaide, Australia | |
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I find the crispy ball idea very interesting. What sorts of food do you imagine the outsides and insides of the balls being made out of?
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Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.
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8:37 am February 17, 2010
| Rizwan
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If the outside of the ball is crunchy, wont those small crunchy bits be a hazard in a zero gravity environment?
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8:51 am February 17, 2010
| DenisG
| | Saarbrücken, Germany (GMT+1) | |
| Member | posts 69 | |
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One could make it from jelly, like jelly beans!
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4:51 pm February 17, 2010
| Rocket-To-The-Moon
| | Altus, Oklahoma, USA | |
| Member | posts 685 | |
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This sounds like a fun project for someone's wife or girlfriend if you want to get them involved.
I guess the criteria would be:
- bite sized (small enough to easily chew without opening the mouth)
- no crumbs
- Slightly tacky outside so they stick together and don't fly out of the bag
- Suitably nutritious (not really that important on a 7 day mission, calories will be more important)
- Packing density (cubes not spheres)
- Caloric density (calories/gram)
This could also make a nice fundraiser if we were to sell "Moon Munchies" online. There might be (likely) some kind of law that prohibits unlicensed cooks/bakers from selling food.
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Main Workgroups: Propulsion & Spacecraft Engineering
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7:44 pm February 17, 2010
| maciejm
| | Australia | |
| Member | posts 21 | |
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Rizwan said:If the outside of the ball is crunchy, wont those small crunchy bits be a hazard in a zero gravity environment?
No. It would be a bite size, which means that you can put a whole peace in your mouth. therefore no bread crumbs or any other mess.
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7:49 pm February 17, 2010
| maciejm
| | Australia | |
| Member | posts 21 | |
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Luke Maurits said:I find the crispy ball idea very interesting. What sorts of food do you imagine the outsides and insides of the balls being made out of?
I have no details yet. It is more of an idea for now, but:
I was planning that I could use existing recepies, such as rice balls wich made out of rice and cheese. But there is limitless verity, using starch and baking or deep frying it, the surface become scrunchy. If you put something inside filling, cheese, even meat it can last longer and be tasty and stimulating.
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7:50 pm February 17, 2010
| maciejm
| | Australia | |
| Member | posts 21 | |
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DenisG said:One could make it from jelly, like jelly beans!
Possibly as a desert. Why not…
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7:57 pm February 17, 2010
| maciejm
| | Australia | |
| Member | posts 21 | |
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Rocket-To-The-Moon said:
This sounds like a fun project for someone's wife or girlfriend if you want to get them involved.
I guess the criteria would be:
- bite sized (small enough to easily chew without opening the mouth)
- no crumbs
- Slightly tacky outside so they stick together and don't fly out of the bag
- Suitably nutritious (not really that important on a 7 day mission, calories will be more important)
- Packing density (cubes not spheres)
- Caloric density (calories/gram)
This could also make a nice fundraiser if we were to sell "Moon Munchies" online. There might be (likely) some kind of law that prohibits unlicensed cooks/bakers from selling food.
Great. I can see you recognize the potential.
I would avoid cubes, if they are a bit hard, the edges may hurt pallet. Additionally one packet would be a meal with several bites inside possibly verity of flavors and it would be calculated as a part of daily energy and nutrient requirement. They could be diced with natural colors to indicate what they consist of. (green-beans, red-meat etc…)
As I mentioned I used to work as a chef, I will try some recipes.
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8:20 pm February 17, 2010
| Luke Maurits
| | Adelaide, Australia | |
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| posts 1483 | |
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There is some really good discussion going on here and I am excited to see us making progress on this front!
I just wanted to remind people that we should also be making it a design priority that the food be as low-residue as it can be without compromising the other design points. The foods which have been mentioned so far are mostly okay for this, but there are caveats: rice must be white and not wholegrain, cheese must be mild and not strong, beans must not be dried and should probably have the skin removed.
Hopefully we will be able to engineer a not-too-terrible toilet solution for most of the trip which will make this not too big of an issue, but there's really not much we can do during EVA beyond diapers, so we should probably have at least some very low residue food that the astronaut can switch to eating exclusively 24 hours prior to landing (or whatever the appropriate time is decided to be by somebody knowledgable about this sort of thing).
Great work, maciejm, it actually sounds like our astronaut is going to eat quite well! I look forward to being able to try some Moon Munchies myself while we test recipes!
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Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.
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9:38 pm February 17, 2010
| Rocket-To-The-Moon
| | Altus, Oklahoma, USA | |
| Member | posts 685 | |
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Luke Maurits said:
I just wanted to remind people that we should also be making it a design priority that the food be as low-residue as it can be without compromising the other design points. The foods which have been mentioned so far are mostly okay for this, but there are caveats: rice must be white and not wholegrain, cheese must be mild and not strong, beans must not be dried and should probably have the skin removed.
A very good point. I think that it is highly possible to go for 7 days without a bowel movement given the right diet (to include pre-mission diet). A low-residue diet should also produce waste that is easy to deal with should the astronaut not be able to hold it.
Here is what Apollo used. It is a functional system and I don't really think that we should spend to much time and resources to pretty it up. The urine system seems overly complicated while the fecal system seems quite simple.
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Main Workgroups: Propulsion & Spacecraft Engineering
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9:48 pm February 17, 2010
| Luke Maurits
| | Adelaide, Australia | |
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| posts 1483 | |
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Actually, I think we should improve on the "Apollo bags" if possible. The astronauts hated them. You can find plenty of quotes around the web of them complaining about it. Some of them said that the CM smelled so bad after someone used one that it sometimes woke them up from a deep sleep.
Obviously we can't make this mission completely comfortable in all respects, since we have limited space and mass, and there will have to be some degree of "just deal with it", but if we can improve on Apollo without bloating our launch mass / power requirements too much I think we definitely should.
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Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.
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9:53 pm February 17, 2010
| Luke Maurits
| | Adelaide, Australia | |
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| posts 1483 | |
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Here's a particular negative description of Apollo toilet procedures. It sounds like both the liquid and solid waste management solutions had problems.
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Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.
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10:52 pm February 17, 2010
| Rocket-To-The-Moon
| | Altus, Oklahoma, USA | |
| Member | posts 685 | |
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The important thing will be to find the appropriate balance between ease of use and ease of design.
The probably isn't the best thread to talk about this in.
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Main Workgroups: Propulsion & Spacecraft Engineering
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11:09 pm February 17, 2010
| Luke Maurits
| | Adelaide, Australia | |
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| posts 1483 | |
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Agreed, this issue should get it's own thread for full discussion. As a final out-of-place remark, though, here's a really good description of the Soyuz toilet system (also ISS, but obviously we can ignore that part).
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Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.
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11:31 pm February 17, 2010
| maciejm
| | Australia | |
| Member | posts 21 | |
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Luke Maurits said:
There is some really good discussion going on here and I am excited to see us making progress on this front!
I just wanted to remind people that we should also be making it a design priority that the food be as low-residue as it can be without compromising the other design points. The foods which have been mentioned so far are mostly okay for this, but there are caveats: rice must be white and not wholegrain, cheese must be mild and not strong, beans must not be dried and should probably have the skin removed.
Hopefully we will be able to engineer a not-too-terrible toilet solution for most of the trip which will make this not too big of an issue, but there's really not much we can do during EVA beyond diapers, so we should probably have at least some very low residue food that the astronaut can switch to eating exclusively 24 hours prior to landing (or whatever the appropriate time is decided to be by somebody knowledgable about this sort of thing).
Great work, maciejm, it actually sounds like our astronaut is going to eat quite well! I look forward to being able to try some Moon Munchies myself while we test recipes!
Thanks for this comment.
I am considering all requirements and additionally I am thinking about human waste disposal methods… maybe something more effective and pleasant than diapers :)
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11:40 pm February 17, 2010
| maciejm
| | Australia | |
| Member | posts 21 | |
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I will be able to put some real ides soon, hopefully next week.
As I mentioned before I would like to know about food storage and reheating methods. Any Ideas?
And I would like to assure that I am looking at the Low-residue guidelines and I understand how problematic can be stomach problem in space.
Cheers
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12:03 am February 18, 2010
| Luke Maurits
| | Adelaide, Australia | |
| Admin
| posts 1483 | |
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With regards to reheating, I suppose it would be ideal if we could come up with a menu which didn't require this, since it would reduce power requirements and fire risk. However, it can't hurt to think about options in case we decide we can't do without it. I think that on the ISS they have some sort of electric system for heating canned food, I presume it is nothing more complex than passing some current through something with a high resistance.
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Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.
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7:53 am March 2, 2010
| maciejm
| | Australia | |
| Member | posts 21 | |
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I have completed a proposal to a food part of life support. I have considered many factors such as storage, reheating and most important nutritional value, but also satisfaction from meals.
This is just a draft, there is no quantities or details, recipes and dietary calculations, just few ideas. It is not a ISS food, but for short term mission should be sufficient. I strongly suggest some reheating method.
LIFE SUPPORT WORK GROUP
FOOD
by maciejm
Time of the mission: 7 days
Number of crew members: 6
Storage method: dried/processed/vacuum packed
Reheating method: Yet to be determined
Food supplies required during the 7 day mission would consist of the thermally preprocessed food with reduced humidity, fulfilling low residue requirements presented by CSTART. In the table below I have presented theoretical menu and food supplies for the time of the travel as well as additional emergency supplies that can be consumed in case of emergency extension of the mission. Volumes and detailed ingredients are yet to be determined.
I would recommend additionally to provide astronauts with food supplement (vitamins including vit. C, calcium and folic acid), to ensure nutritional requirements are matched.
I have designed a food to be a bite size and ready to consume, rehydration would be unnecessary. Satisfaction from meal would be ensured by providing variety of meals in interesting form and with different textures. Meals can be customised by exchanging ingredients to match personal preferences and dietary requirements, but pre seasoned.
Quality of food, and low risk of food poisoning would be a very high priority, therefore some preservatives must be added. Preservatives in thermal processed food, rapidly chilled and vacuum packed will reduce spoilage to minimum ensuring tasty and safe meals.
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Food Items
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Breakfast*
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Cheese bites
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Bacon cubes
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White bread crackers
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Egg cubes
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Toasts filled with Jam ^
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Hash-brown
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Water
Milk
Tea+
Coffee+
Water
OJ(no pulp)
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Lunch*#
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Baked potato cubes
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Meat balls
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Baked Zucchini
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Clear Chicken soup
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Tomato sauce<
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Rice balls
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Baked Chicken cubes
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Baked pumpkin
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Mayo<
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Baked sweet potato
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Stake cubes
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Baked Carrot
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Clear vegetable soup
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Mustard<
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White flour Pasta
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Fish cakes
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Beetroot
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BBQ sauce<
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Dessert^
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Doughnut filled with jam
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Milk Chocolate bites
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Mud cake filled with chocolate
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Mini Mars Bar
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Verity of pre-packed sweets (off the shelf)
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Dinner
(sandwich/toasted) on white bread)*
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Ham and cheese
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Roasted vegetable
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Roasted beef and gherkins
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Snacks
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Dried apple (no skin), soya crisps (off the shelf), other
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* Refers to bite size balls/cubes
^ Refers to bite size balls filled with second ingredient
# Refers to foods that require reheating
< Refers to food in tube
+ Refers to pre brewed beverage
Recipes, storage and reheating methods will be tested prior to flight.
I look for constructive comments and I will continue working on details of storage and recipes.
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7:55 am March 2, 2010
| maciejm
| | Australia | |
| Member | posts 21 | |
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I have available a PDF vesrion.
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