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3:53 am
October 5, 2010
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Luke Maurits
| | Adelaide, Australia | |
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Thanks for clearing that up, rpulkrabek.
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Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.
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8:25 am
October 5, 2010
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Dave
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I am happy to work on and build the hybrid rocket… it is a good place to start!
Thanks for passing on more info regarding fuel choice and tank(s) material. I have qualifications that cover both metals and have a substantial amount of experience working with both these alloys. Welding rods for the TIG and for these materials are rather cheap considering how many rods you get in a pack! The shielding gas that I shall use is industrial grade Argon. It gives a hotter arc and enables me to choose a good range of amps. But, if under test and working conditions the tank has any type of failures that are welding related, I will consider a different type of shielding gas (eg: the old 71T mix – now called something else due to a welding gas industry naming change… long story); 71T contains Helium so allows for a cooler arc and slower weld pool allowing for a better fusion of the parent metals.
Other factors include the use of silicon in the first choice of rods (5% Si)… Silicon allows the filler rod to flow better. 10% is normally the rod of choice but excess silicon or bad welding technique can cause a lack of weld integrity…. both pre and post heats will be required to better avoid thermal shock and temperature variances created from the AC High frequency.
I will consult the Austrailan welding standards (AWS) regarding the above so that way we can get the tank registered and tested to meet any governement requirements (The AWS alines with all ISO welding standards and I have been tested competent in nine (9) of the 10 standards so we are covered there) that we will need in order to launch something safely.
My toolmaker has experience in maching turbo shafts. He has also worked in animinatronics and machining their components. He is happy to try and machine a turbo shaft for us to experiment with… I have also done some turbo rebuilds and alot of pump fitting (marine industry and food related industries plus now rail – main transformer pump). My 2IC has now 19 years exp in rail, dual traded electrical fitter mechanic so knows alot about electrical motors and speed and variable control (both in DC and 25kV systems). I able able to get my hands on [with some wheeling and dealing - not what you know but who!] a complete stainless steel high speed main transformer pump… it pumps mineral oil so would need modification to suit fuel requirements… but shape and size wise ideal!!!
Also just a note: I am ex-navy and also work where there are alot of ex-service members from all services. A launch of a rocket to the height exceeding 100km will require defence assistance… they have access to all the gear. Plus, I think that the ADF (austrailan defence force would be interested?) The navy are already very interested in one of my other main projects so that might give me an in once I build what I think they need… long story… woomera would be ideal!!! Hmmm launch in Oz? Government is offering to kick start an Aussie space industry might be just the right timing in this country…
Dave
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11:24 pm
October 5, 2010
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Nick
| | Florida | |
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Great to have you on board Dave!
From my experience, Hopefully there will not bee a need for too much welding on the actual rocket at the current size we are looking at.(Im sure Ground Support Equipment will need the majority of welding) The actual engine should be designed to be modular, with removable nozzle,tank, combustion chamber etc. A good design should be held together with tight fittings and bolts so nothing is permanent. (there will be alot of trial and error with this engine) As for fittings for the oxidizer tank and lines running to the combustion chamber, I would recommend something like swagelok, although a little bit pricey, they make strong fittings that can be done and undone over and over again.
As for the body of the rocket, have we decided on Aluminum ? or have we considered fiberglass tubing or other composites?
This week i hope to bust out my "Mechanics and Thermodynamics of Propulsion" Textbook and start looking into engine design to get to our desiired altitude . Then hopefully get some analysis done on N2O+HDPE.
If NASA could start from scratch, and get a man on the Moon in 10 years using 1960's technology, Why can't we get a rocket to space today?
Lets get this done!!!
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12:59 am
October 6, 2010
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rpulkrabek
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Nick said:
As for the body of the rocket, have we decided on Aluminum ? or have we considered fiberglass tubing or other composites?
When you say body, do you mean the same thing when we say aeroshell, that is, the sort of tube that fits over the nozzle, tank, chamber, etc that is shown in this picture? If so, then no, we haven't decided. I even proposed once if it would work that it would be made from some sort of plastic, but was unsure if that would even work.
Have you, Nick, been following much with the design of OHKLA? I really want to get this moving and get some prototypes made. Your help and experience would amazing to move this forward.
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1:27 am
October 6, 2010
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Luke Maurits
| | Adelaide, Australia | |
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Nick said:
This week i hope to bust out my "Mechanics and Thermodynamics of Propulsion" Textbook and start looking into engine design to get to our desiired altitude . Then hopefully get some analysis done on N2O+HDPE.
Before you do, make sure you read through all of this thread, if you didn't follow it as it was actually happening. Rpulkrabek and I did quite a lot of work on propellant requirements and came up with a requirement of about 175 kg total (HDPE and N2O, in a 1:8 ratio), for a rocket about 30 cm in diameter. I say this only so you don't spend time re-doing what has been done – unless of course you want to. If you could provide a totally independent verification of that that rough number, it would be fantastic!
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Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.
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2:44 pm
October 6, 2010
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Dave
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Thanks for the welcome everyone.
If the rocket body or aeroshell is to be made of fibreglass, this will have to be made by someone else. I have spoken to my local council and the using of fibreglass resins (due to the smell) is not allowed in suburbia… well not mine anyway. It is a safety reason and can cause asthma attacks similar in a way that vinegar and chips can cause asthma attacks.. also some people are affected in different ways including eye irritation.
I was hoping to use fibreglass in some of my other projects but now I am using thin light weight metals… it will keep the neighbours happy!
Dave
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2:51 pm
October 6, 2010
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Dave
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Hey Nick…
Ground support equipment? What do you require?
Hmmm… "Mechanics and Thermodynamics of propulsion" sounds like a good book! What are some of its chapters?
Dave
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4:04 pm
October 6, 2010
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Dave
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I have noticed that there seem to be only a few main contributers, well in this post…
Namely: Luke, rpulkrabek, biollante and Nick plus me and my best friend and 2IC Johan. Johan will join this site in time; he has no internet at present due to computer and ISP issues.
From what I have been reading over the last week or so from the above contributers, is that we have "got the ball rolling again"! I am only new to this team so I was wondering if everybody could introduce themselves, their background and what areas they will be or are happy to be apart of regarding this rocket design and construction.
Previously, I have mentioned the areas in which I am able to be of assistance. Yesterday, finally, I have a new 20Amp and 32Amp cct in my shed. The equipment will be soon to follow [within the next two (2) months] all going well.
What other equipment do you guys have access too? Is anybody good with electronics? Johan and I are still learning this area but are quite able to build electronics BUT design not so much. Software… not a chance in hell; definitely not an interest! No offence to the programmers.. each to their own.
Also regarding swagelok fittings… I may be able borrow/ use the swagelok machine from/at work failing that I will go and buy one (1). It will find its uses in my other projects. So swagelok fittings no problems there!!
Dave
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5:22 pm
October 6, 2010
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Luke Maurits
| | Adelaide, Australia | |
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Rpulkrabek and Nick are definitely both more experienced and qualified than me to contribute to this particular project, but I'm happy to play a part where I can.
I have a Bachelor's degree in Applied and Pure Mathematics. I switched majors to maths about half way through a theoretical physics degree, though, so I have very good basic physics knowledge as well. I have no hands-on rocketry experience but since CSTART was formed I have done a lot of reading. I'm still at University and so have access to a very large library (the largest in the southern hemisphere, actually), which has lots of great books in it on aeronautics and astronautics, so I've been lucky enough to be able to get my hands on books dedicated to hybrid rocket theory, etc. I think I now have a fairly good general knowledge of hybrid rocketry, the various factors that effect how well they work, and common pitfalls.
I have basically no manufacturing/machining experience to speak of – I learned to
oxyacetylene weld in high school, but that's about it. I am not opposed
to learning if I ever get the time, money and shed-space, but
realistically speaking that isn't likely to happen any time soon. I am a bit better with electronics, which used to be one of my main interests before the internet "took off". I have been reading up on the Arduino microcontrollers and am considering buying one soon, so it's possible that I may end up being able to help with avionics at some later stage, although it's likely that someone who has more experience right now will come along before I get up to speed. We did have an electronics person interested in helping with this project around a few months ago, I'll try to chase them down and see if they're still interested.
Another thing is that I can do software work. I love programming, I do it a lot, as part of my studies, on private projects for fun, and in the past I've done it professionally while taking a break from studying. I know several languages and am always willing to learn more.
I think the combination of basic physics, advanced maths and programming means that I will be the most use to this project doing stuff like modelling trajectories, predicting landing points and that kind of thing. If I checked out some textbooks I could probably also model hybrid rocket combustion if we really needed to. With regards to everything else, I can assist with very broad design decisions but when it comes to choosing particular materials or construction techniques, etc., I will usually be only to happy to defer to Rpulkrabek, Nick or Dave, who will know what they are doing much better than me.
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Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.
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6:30 pm
October 6, 2010
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brmj
| | Rochester, New York, United States | |
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Post edited 8:20 pm – October 6, 2010 by brmj
I am currently studying for a computer science degree, but have no formal qualifications as of yet. I have some decent knowledge of basic physics and chemistry and I am prepared to learn as necessary. Like Luke, I love programming and consider myself reasonably good at it. Also like Luke, I think I've picked up a fairly good understanding of the basics of rocketry, astrodynamics and so on, but I am by no means an expert. Over the last year or so I have been becoming very involved with ham radio and lately I've been improving my electronics skills somewhat, including micro-controllers.
I can generally fake the absolute most basic of welding and working with lathes, drill-presses and so on, but ought not to be trusted with important or expensive things if I am doing that. I am rather more comfortable working with wood or plastic than metal, but not exactly an expert at that either. I can, however, solder competently and etch circuit boards.
I expect that my combination of skills will make me most useful for the balloon and satellite projects, avionics and such for rockets, and to a lesser degree the sort of stuff Luke is suggesting for himself, since I don't have as much math or physics aptitude. I am willing to do whatever the project needs, though, and I am not adverse to learning new skills.
As far as equipment goes, I own various hand tools, a good soldering iron and multimeter, a power supply and a few other items like that, but I have access to a wide variety of oscilloscopes, spectrum analyzers and pretty much everything one might want for electronics work, particularly radio. I can also gain access to two different ham radio shacks with all manner of VHF, UHF and HF radio equipment and computer controlled directional antennas for satellite communications. With more time in advance and an accomplice in the ME program, I can likely gain access to pretty much anything one would want for metal fabrication. I might be able to finagle access to aero-club's laser cutter, since they let the ham radio club use it for our blimp's gondola in the past. Any time I am home for break, I have friends with unusually well equipped workshops with things like vacuum presses and exceedingly large CNC machines, but I can't exactly count on daily access to that sort of thing.
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Main work groups: Propulsion (booster), Spacecraft Engineering, Computer Systems, Navigation and Guidance (software)
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7:42 pm
October 6, 2010
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Nick
| | Florida | |
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I am fresh out of college and have a B.S. in Aerospace Engineering. My senior Design Project included building a Hybrid Rocket in which we used HTPB and N2O. I have strong interests in Propulsion, and a pretty good Mathematics background. I have some programming eperience, mostly with FORTRAN, but im better in MATLAB. I have some Pro/Engineer experience, But i havn't touched it in about a year. I have to dig out my education copy and start fooling around again. I also have experience with Basica machine shop equipment. (Milling, Lathe etc.)
As far as the Fiberglass issue, We can get pre formed cylinder's in pretty much any size, and all we will have to do is prime and paint and cut slots for fins (Which we could use Aluminum to reduce fin flutter.. There are some equations for that, i'll look for them later)
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11:39 pm
October 6, 2010
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rpulkrabek
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I graduated in the spring of 2009 with a B.Sc. in mechanical engineering. I was also studying towards a minor in structural materials, but the timing didn't fit, so I was 1 class too little and didn't want to spend another semester for this. I am currently working for a large company located in Finland developing their CAD and PDM environment.
Since high school, I have always been involved with machine tools. This, combined with my interest in CAD, lead me to design components for personal use. Since I also understood math and physics quite well, it seemed rather obvious to me that I would pursue a career in mechanical engineering. Unfortunately, I no longer have access to any sort of machine tools.
Currently, I have found a way to "cheat" at engineering with CAD and FEA/CFD. This has been my way of working with CSTART. I've been modeling up certain rocket components and experimenting with the assembly on what would work and what wouldn't. While doing this, I have been trying to share through the forums the assembly and trying to get feedback on what should be changed. I like this way of working. OHKLA has since been evolving nicely. I have still had to do quite many calculations with a pencil and paper, but the digital method has been, in my opinion, a huge assist.
Applications I am most familiar with are: Pro/Engineer, Vertex, Siemens NX, AutoCAD, Inventor, ANSYS, Mastercam, MATLAB, Matchcad, Mathematica, Maple.
(note: if we are striving to use opensource software, I still think Octave is a good replacement for MATLAB. qtoctave is a quite good interface)
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12:09 am
October 7, 2010
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Luke Maurits
| | Adelaide, Australia | |
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rpulkrabek said:
(note: if we are striving to use opensource software, I still think Octave is a good replacement for MATLAB. qtoctave is a quite good interface)
Just wanted to emphasise that we certainly are striving for that, or at least should be. From the Social Contract:
A genuine effort will be made to ensure that all computer files used in
the planning, design and construction of CSTART missions, rockets and
spacecraft shall be in non-proprietary formats which can be meaningfully
viewed and modified using software which satisfies the Free Software
Foundation's Free Software Definition. Should this not be achievable without significantly impairing CSTART's ability to achieve its mission,
a genuine effort will be made to ensure that the software required to
meaningfully view and modify these files shall be available to the
public free of charge. Dependence on software which is both proprietary
and expensive shall be considered only as a last resort.
This part of the contract was carefully written to let us use non-free software when the free alternatives will not cut it (and in the CAD world that will happen quite a bit), but whenever the free stuff will work well enough, we should use it preferentially.
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Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.
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11:56 am
October 7, 2010
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Dave
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AGREED…
Thanks to all for your introductions… nice to meet you..
As mentioned I am a dual traded maintenance fitter/ welder 1st class. I have been involved in the engineering fields for almost 20yrs. I am 36yrs old. I have studied 176 subjects in technical and all mechanical and some electrical engineering related trades. I have nine of the ten welding certificates and have also held an aviation approved welding qualification. I am ex- royal austrailan navy and served as a marine technician for four years (4 yrs). I served on both steam and large diesel powered warships. I have a very stong interest in submarines and warship design and construction.
I have lived and worked in all capital cities of Australia including Tasmania. Since 1992 I have been on the move to one contract or another and done jobs that I was not ticketed or qualified to do… but you learn quickly. I have now fixed, rebuildt, re-designed, re-engineered, maintained, adapted plus driven and operated so many different types of machines and equipment that I am now able to fix and build just about anything.
My present role since becoming a Maintenance Manager in charge of a small to medium sized bakery [previous exp in production lines and automated mechanical design knowledge helped... I design and build machines] is working as a Maintenance supervisor in charge of seven (7) engineering tradesman on night shift [there is only one tradesman on during the day] maintaining a fleet of 48 IMU 160/ SMU 260 [48 = combination of IMU's /SMU's] electric trains for Bombardier [my company builds the trains and I maintain them] rail contracting to the government owned Queensland rail network in Brisbane, Australia.
My previous and present hobbies and interests include the following:
Model engineering (steam engines and trains, stiriling engines, gas engines, electromagnetic engines, gas turbine engines and other cycle engines plus solar vehicles and electric vehicles as a side hobby)
Plastic models (mainly submarines and warships plus some space stuff)
Transformers (over 200 in collection) – love robots!
Lego rules
Blacksmithing (trained by english blacksmith/ welder ex-army corp engineers; my ex-welding instructor known now for 20yrs plus is now retired and working as successful metal sculpturer and great at wierd shapes – good moulder in many materials)
Foundry work (constructed own furnace to melt cast iron, Al alloys, brass and bronze, etc) (strong interest in metallurgy which came from welding)
Welding (all metals including titanium [phase 1 & 2] and other alloys)(Arc or MMAW, Mig or GMAW, Tig or GTAW plus other)
Machining (lathes, mills [vert & horizontal] some CNC programing background, surface grinder, electro arc, sand blasting etc)
Electrical wiring and component mounting
Diesel engines and hydraulics [including some electro-hydraulic control]
Pneumatics [plus some electro - pneumatic control]
Project management
Thermodynamics
and the list goes on.. rockets, space stuff-planets, moons, galaxies etc
Present studies include:
(2nd) advanced diploma in electical engineering – have AD Mech Eng
Post Graduate diploma in Project Management and Green Belt Six Sigma
Next year also start:
Cert IV engineering technical supervision – mechanical and/or electrical
The following year with acceptance already approved:
Masters in Rollingstock engineering design and construction
Cheers
Dave
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12:52 pm
October 9, 2010
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Rocket-To-The-Moon
| | Altus, Oklahoma, USA | |
| Member | posts 685 | |
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While we are on the subject of re-introductions I suppose I'll throw my name in the hat and try to get myself more involved again.
I'm Titan. At the moment I'm working on finishing a non-technical degree in aeronautics so I don't have a whole lot of practical experience or knowledge to fall back on. I did grow up around a lot of metal working so I am relatively familiar with steel fabrication, but more along the lines of heavy steel support structures than precision machined parts. My dad has a well equipped shop that can support the manufacture of heavy parts (think launch pad). I have an extreme fascination and strong aptitude toward mechanical devices so given the chance, I can/will throw myself head first into a project.
As of now, my tool inventory is limited, but I am in need of a hobby so I am not opposed to acquiring tools as needed to work on projects.
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Main Workgroups: Propulsion & Spacecraft Engineering
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3:53 pm
October 10, 2010
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Dave
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So the breakdown…
Luke:
- BA in applied and pure mathematics
- Some physics knowledge as well
- No manufacturing skills
- Love's programming
brmj:
- Studying computer science
- Basic physics and chemistry
- Love's programming
- Into radios (ham) VHF, UHF and HF radio equipment (electronics)
- Access to metal fabrication equipment
- Part access to Aero club's laser
- Part access to friends with vacuum presses, CNC
Nick:
- BS in Aerospace engineering
- Design project with a Hybrid rocket engine
- Experience in using HTPB and N2O
- Strong interest in propulsion, good maths background
- Some programming experience in Fortran but better in MATLAB
- Some pro/engineer experience
- Experience with basic machine shop equipment
- Fibreglassing
rpulkrabek:
- B.Sc in mechanical engineering plus part minor in structural materials
- Developing CAD and PDM environments
- Long interest in machine tools
- Good at maths and physics
- Is and has been modeling up certain rocket components and assembly
- Familar with: Pro/engineer, vertex, siemens Nx, Autocad, Inventor, ANSYS, Mastercam, Matlab, Matchcad, Mathematica, Maple (Octave replacement for Matlab)
rocket-to-the-moon:
- Completing a non-technical degree in aeronautics
- Limited practical experinence
- Familar with metal fabrication moreso heavy steel support structures
- Well equipped workshop
- Extreme fascination toward mechanical devices
- Present tools limited, but needs hobby and will purchase tools as required
- Launch pad construction
Dave:
- Advanced diploma in Mechanical engineering
- Half completed Advanced diploma in Electrical engineering
- Dual traded maintenance fitter/ welder 1st class
- Highly qualified welder in all techniques
- Work as Maintenance supervisor in charge of team of tradesman (all will help)
- Setting up own large workshop
- Strong interest in all fields of engineering at the technical level
- Background stems back to around age ten (10) in anything that works, toys, parents phone and tv and lawnmower and pool pump etc
- Strong interest in planets plus moon/ satellite exploration
- Strong interest in alternate vehicles, engines, forming techniques and crazy farout inventions
- Fuels and gases
- Warships and submarines
- Space flight
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4:35 pm
October 10, 2010
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Dave
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Ok, I think now we all have a pretty good idea of who can do what regarding equipment and their knowledge background. I feel that between us all, from what I have read, that we all bring a substantial amount of engineering knowledge from beginner to very experienced in a variety of useful fields. Our individual networks are also an extension of our combined knowledge access that will be of a great benefit to all those involved in this rocket design and final construction.
So now, if I may ask some questions:
- Metric or imperial measurement?
- Country of launch? Main construction site? Where the launch pad is? Take rocket to pad rather than pad to rocket?
- Size (height) how big do we want to go?
- Moving the rocket? Pad? Fuel? Ground equipment? Other?
- Drawing program to be used? All will need/ require access to same? I have none as yet?
- Are we using ISO standards or equivalent (country depending), none?
- Best way to collaborate once construction has begun? This site, other net, phone, other?
- Long term goal of CSTART after successful rocket launch(es)
- Document compiling technique, traceability, text book references etc
- Other areas
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3:48 am
October 12, 2010
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Luke Maurits
| | Adelaide, Australia | |
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| posts 1483 | |
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Hi Dave,
Sorry for taking a while to reply, I'm very busy at the moment organising a big round the world trip for later this year. To quickly address some of your questions:
Metric or imperial measurement? Good question. I'd really, really, really like CSTART to be able to take a firm "metric only" policy (as, I'm sure, all right thinking people would), but realistically it's likely that a good proportion of our construction will happen in the US, and it might be hard for those people to source, say, a 250 mm diameter pipe or some such, because pipes diameters in the US come in multiples of 1/6th of an inch or something.
Country of launch? Currently undecided and up for discussion. I suppose there will be a trade-off between where most of us are located and where will be the least hassle from a legal perspective.
Size (height) how big do we want to go? Should probably not be dictated in advance and instead determined by other factors. Desire altitudes and velocities will dicate propellant quantities, which will in turn largely dictate overall rocket volume. Aerodynamic and manufacturing considerations will largely dictate how that volume is distributed between height and diameter.
Moving the rocket? Pad? Fuel? Ground equipment? Other? All good questions, all currently undecided and up for research and discussion.
- Drawing program to be used? All will need/ require access to same? I have none as yet?
Are we using ISO standards or equivalent (country depending), none? I don't really know enough about this to comment, does anybody have any strong feelings one way or the other?
Best way to collaborate once construction has begun? This site, other net, phone, other? It's definitely our intention to get the cstart.org site to a standard that we can use it for collaboration – at the moment, it's not too good for this, basically being a forum and a Wiki which are used simultaneously without much procedure for how information migrates between them. We'd like to do a lot better than this, though. If you look through semi-recent blog and forum posts you'll see that we're in dicussions now with a similar group, Mach 30, on cooperating to develop a web application specifically designed to faciltate distributed and collaborative development of hardware.
Long term goal of CSTART after successful rocket launch(es) I could write tonnes on this right now, but probably shouldn't because nothing is official. There are various ideas scattered all over the forums, though. I think most of us are basically happy for the team to tackle any and all projects related to space travel and research, in the long term, branching to new areas as we get the money, experience and hardware to handle them. The only thing that everyone seems to agree upon is that we shouldn't spread ourselves too thin in the early days, hence us limiting ourselves to 4 comparatively minimalist foundational projects for now.
Document compiling technique, traceability, text book references etc Another good and really important question that we have talked a little bit about in the past, but not made much progress on. All I think I can say for now is that if we could integrate something like document compilation with our web application, that would be pretty neat.
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Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.
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11:38 pm
October 13, 2010
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rpulkrabek
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Post edited 11:38 pm – October 13, 2010 by rpulkrabek
Drawing program to be used?
At the moment, I have been using Pro/ENGINEER. I feel that this has been working quite well. It has provided good results so far. I haven't yet made any 2D drawings yet, because there has been no need since no part of the design has been finalized. I have chosen Pro/E because of my ease to get access. I have access to other CAD programs too. If people have a desire to use another program, I am willing to change, if we decide what is the best program.
By the way, Dave, have you been following the discussion on the OHKLA design? It would be great to get your opinion since you have a great amount of experience with manufacturing. Sometimes it's difficult to design with the thought of manufacturing and assembling in mind.
Are we using ISO standards or equivalent (country depending), none?
We haven't decided on this. I would assume we follow more closely to ISO/DIN. One problem with these standards is that you have to pay to know them. Perhaps an eventual goal of CSTART would be to create an open standard, but let's not focus on this yet, as we have bigger things to take care of.
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