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Communications framework

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3:19 am
December 14, 2009


squid

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I think before we start any major work we need to get some sort of framework in place.

What do we actually need to transmit?

What data rates do we need?

How many streams do we need?

What kind of quality of service?

What kind of modulation scheme are we going to use?

What are the power requirements?

How will the communications integrate with the rest of the systems?


and I'm sure there are many other constraints I haven't thought of (without getting into too much detail).

Post up if you can think of some more constraints, or if you can answer some of these questions.

Once we have all these answers we can start to think about what we should be designing.

3:34 am
December 14, 2009


Luke Maurits

Adelaide, Australia

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These are all very good questions.  Unfortunately, we can't answer many of them because we have an extreme shortage of communications knowledge.  Every time somebody who claims to know their comms shows up to the project, they make one or two posts and then leave for good.  None of our active and dedicated members really know what we are talking about.

With regards to what we will need to transmit:

  • The astronaut will need to be in voice contact with someone on Earth at all times, except for brief blackout periods when the moon is in the way.  Note that this will need to work while the astronaut is inside the Command Module (the majority of the trip) and on the lunar lander and during lunar EVA.
  • We will want to have HD video footage sent from inside the CM cockpit, on the lunar lander, and possibly other places.
  • We will want to have telemetry data sent from the CM to Earth pretty regularly (detailing temperature and pressure readings, gas supplies and voltage levels, estimated positions and velocities, perhaps a few medical sensors, etc.).  I don't know whether it would be best to have an automated system send these things constantly on some kind of loop or have a situation where a ground system can interrogate the CM for specific values (or both).
  • Ideally we will want the CM to be remotely controllable so we can do unmanned test missions.  This probably just involves being able to send a pre-defined set of control commands.  We would probably want to do some sort of authentication over this channel.

This is all I can think of for now, but others may chip in with more (most of our members are in the Northern hemisphere so you may not see any replies for hours, but rest assured you will get feedback on this).

As for power requirements, we are anticipating that communication will be one of our biggest power drains.  The answer is basically "as little as we can get away with while ensuring everything will work reliably".  Basically, the Communications Workgroup gets to say "comms will need x kW of power to do this properly" and the Spacecraft Engineering Workgroup has to come up with a power solution to make this possible (right now we are considering using oxygen-methanol fuel cells for power generation, I should be able to chase down the power specs for these if you like).  Right now we have no idea – if you could give us even an order of magnitude estimate that would be a huge help.

Things like modulation schemes will be left up to people like you who know what they are doing!  Just post whatever you think would be the most appropriate modulation scheme to get what we want from the moon to Earth, with as little power as possible but bearing in mind that we want it to be reliable and won't have access to big expensive antennas.  Eventually another comms engineer will come along and either agree with you or disagree.  Once we have a few people agreeing on one scheme being the best choice, we can "lock that in" and go from there.  If you don't feel confident making a decision, just post a list of good candidates with Wikipedia links and others can have a read and offer their opinions.

Right now you are the only person here who knows what they are doing in this field, so you can basically lead the charge for now.  CLLARE is a long term project so if you make mistakes, somebody will notice them well before it matters.  Be bold!

Main workgroup: Navigation and Guidance. Side interests: Propulsion, Computer Systems, Communications. Skill set: Mathematics major, good knowledge of Newtonian physics, decent programming (Python, C, Java, PHP)

3:57 am
December 14, 2009


Luke Maurits

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An afterthought: before you get too carried away designing things, you should read our Design Philosophy.  Try to stick to its ideals wherever you can when proposing designs – this is something every part of the team tries its best to do.

Main workgroup: Navigation and Guidance. Side interests: Propulsion, Computer Systems, Communications. Skill set: Mathematics major, good knowledge of Newtonian physics, decent programming (Python, C, Java, PHP)

4:02 am
December 14, 2009


Luke Maurits

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Another afterthought: I don't know if you already saw the link to this in the "Relevant discussions from Reddit" thread, but early on in this project, back when we were based on the Reddit social bookmarking site, someone who appeared to know that they were talking about made this post with rather a few communication related details.  However, he didn't hang around very long at all and is no longer active.  None of us know enough to tell if the things he recommended were sensible or insane, hopefully you can make sense of it and borrow good ideas where he had them and suggest better alternatives where he did not.

As far as I know, that one post is the most detailed communication related discussion that the project has ever had.

Main workgroup: Navigation and Guidance. Side interests: Propulsion, Computer Systems, Communications. Skill set: Mathematics major, good knowledge of Newtonian physics, decent programming (Python, C, Java, PHP)

4:52 pm
December 14, 2009


squid

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argh, can't view reddit at work :(.

i've just thought of another major issue as well.

we need a frequency band to transmit on. getting that band in a single country wouldn't be an issue, but across multiple countries it would be. i'm not sure whether there is a public band that is commonly available most countries, maybe the amateur radio guys can help out with that?

6:05 pm
December 14, 2009


Rocket-To-The-Moon

Grand Forks, North Dakota, USA

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Post edited 6:06 pm – December 14, 2009 by Rocket-To-The-Moon


None of our active and dedicated members really know what we are talking about.

This made me laugh.


I think that we definitely need a primary and a backup system. The primary should be capable of sending (and receiving) voice, telemetry data, and at least one HD video stream,  and low resolution video streams for monitoring other cameras (they are recorded in HD to the hard disk on-board the craft but can be selected to broadcast in HD from the ground). The secondary system can maintain a link to transmit a redundant bi-directional voice path. If the primary system fails then we will be reduced to voice only (plus maybe a low-resolution video). I don't know if we would press on to the moon with only the secondary system operational or not. Both systems should also be capable of receiving control commands (encrypted).

One issue that we need to think about is how the astronaut will communicate with the Earth during EVA. I believe I remember reading that OpenLuna is planning on using off the shelf 802.11(n?) for communication between the lander and the astronaut. This solution obviously introduces range limitations, but it would be simple and cheap (and fast enough for HD video from the suit). To be honest if we get to the Moon in the first place I think that we would be content with a 500' radius for exploration.

I don't know what kind of security we need to put in place for communications. Everything needs to be encrypted that is sent to space so that someone can't spoof control signals. With a totally open program this becomes a serious concern (but most hackers won't have the equipment…imagine Somali pirates with a big dish). I really don't think that anyone would intentionally try to jam our comm equipment, but this might be something that is worth talking about also.


On vacation through December 30, my participation will be lacking until after then. | Main Workgroups: Propulsion (Booster) & Spacecraft Engineering (Lander)

10:25 pm
December 14, 2009


squid

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Post edited 10:27 pm – December 14, 2009 by squid


i wouldn't use 802.11 for the main communication link, but it would be alright for the suit communications.

Wwe don't need huge bandwidth for the earth – lander link, and it is designed for limited range. we are also extremely limited in our error correction, since due to the very large propogation delays, packet resends would increase latency considerably.

we need a very robust data stream. low data rate cdma with a seperate control stream (for time synchronisation and signalling) would be appropriate, and also provides some security with the use of pseudo random codes. it also makes it easy to scale the streams for particular bandwidth needs.

6:55 am
December 15, 2009


Luke Maurits

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What precisely do you mean by "limited in our error correction…due to large propogation delays"?  I can see how this would be the case if we used a system of, say, including checksums at the end of data packets and requesting a resend if the checksum is wrong, but aren't there error correcting codes (like Reed Solomon, for instance) where the point is that as long as the number of errors in a given packet is below some threshold, the error can be recovered from without resending data, due to redundancy in the encoded version?  I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, I'm sure you know more about error correcting codes than I do, but I know a bit about them and this confused me.

Robustness is definitely important.  I don't know anything about CDMA (my mind translates it into "not GSM"), but I'll read up on it soon.

With regards to security:  I actually know a lot about cryptography (wrote my honours thesis on maths very relevant to it and originally planned to be a cryptographer) but relatively little about stream ciphers (although I know the basics and wrote the Wikipeida article on correlation attacks), which is what I expect it would be easiest to use in this case (although I don't really know anything about digital radio communications, maybe block ciphers would actually work just fine).  I am happy to help out with regards to security planning where my understanding of telecoms allows.  Maybe you could expand a little on what you had in mind when you mentioned the use of pseudo random codes?

Main workgroup: Navigation and Guidance. Side interests: Propulsion, Computer Systems, Communications. Skill set: Mathematics major, good knowledge of Newtonian physics, decent programming (Python, C, Java, PHP)

6:50 pm
December 15, 2009


squid

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yeah i was talking about packet resends. we definitely need at least error detection on the packets, and some error correction without packet resends would be needed, but that also increases overheads due to longer checksums, reducing our actual data rate. we may have to use different error correction schemes for different data streams, ie video/audio can have some errors and not affect it too much, but something like telemetry data would not handle it at all.

cdma uses pseudo random 32 bit (i think, can't quite remember and don't have my notes with me) mutually orthogonal codes to seperate the streams, which also gives us some security and easy noise rejection, and since we have digital systems on each end, we can decode it relatively easily since we know the codes.

the codes for 3G are generated using gold codes (the exact equation is in the 3G spec), but we can write our own spec depending on what the hardware at each end can do.

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