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Slightly altered CM structure concept

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3:02 am
January 27, 2010


Luke Maurits

Adelaide, Australia

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I've been thinking some more about the CM structure concept diagrams now featured in the CLLARE Overview Document and I think they can be improved upon.  My main concern is that putting the electronics pressure vessel in the front bottom of the main pressure vessel leads to an inefficient use of space overall.  It (i) makes the pressure vessel longer than strictly necessary and (ii) wastes a lot of space inside the cone, underneath the pressure vessel.  I also fear that there simply won't be enough room in there for a redundant set of avionics and the fuel cells.

The obvious solution to all of these problems is to put the secondary pressure vessel underneath the first one, as pictured here:

mouse

This results in a shorter cone, with less wasted space underneath, and ample room for both electronics and a power plant.  Thoughts?

Also note that in this diagram I have proposed a new solution to the well known problem of making sure there is enough room to get an EVA suit on in the capsule (and, indeed, enough room to store an EVA suit).  The first basic idea is to have the cabin be slightly longer than it strictly needs to be, so that there is considerable room behind the seat where the suit can be stored.  When it comes time to don the suit, the suit is pulled from behind the seat into the astronaut's lap.  The second basic idea is to have the seat be capable of sliding linearly toward or away from the front of the capsule, just like a standard automobile chair.  Once the astronaut has the suit in their lap, they can slide the chair maximally backward, away from the control console, leaving themselves with a rather large space in which to suit up.  The big downside to this approach is that it results in a longer capsule than strictly necessary, but it might be the most straightforward way to deal with the changing room problem.  This idea is completely separate from the repositioning of the second pressure vessel idea, so if people don't like this one due to wasted space, we can just ditch it.  Consider, though, that the "wasted" space could be put to very interesting use, e.g. satellites small enough to fit back there could be "hand launched" during EVA.

A third idea: on the outer sides of the pressure vessel where we originally planned to mount electronics, ala Gemini, we could have radiators.  The cabin atmosphere could be pumped past 0, 1 or 2 of these radiators depending on how badly cooling was needed.

Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.

10:13 pm
January 28, 2010


Rocket-To-The-Moon

Altus, Oklahoma, USA

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I like the idea of sliding the seat backward. I can envision that this would be a good way to get enough leg room to get the suit put on. This all depends on how rigid it is and how large the suit's life support system is (quit large I imagine).

Main Workgroups: Propulsion & Spacecraft Engineering

10:20 pm
January 28, 2010


Luke Maurits

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It certainly solves the space problem handily, and there is a huge existing knowledge base on how to actually implement the adjustable seating from the automobile industry.  The only thing that stops me from outright loving it is that it involves so much extra space in the cabin, and hence extra size-mass of the CM.

An unrelated thought I've had recently: the long and thin horizontal second pressure vessel under the main vessel in this diagram could just as easily be placed vertically behind the main pressure vessel.  This could result in an overall pressure vessel shape that is practically conical itself, absolutely minimising wasted space inside the main CM shell.  It may also result in allow a steeper slope of the cone, which could (1) improve visibility through the window and (2) reduce CM length.  It would probably necessitate moving the breathing gas tanks inside the cabin, but I actually think that might be a good idea.  In an absolute worst case emergency, the astronaut could always perform manual oxygen injection into the cabin with hand valves if the automatic system fails.

Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.

10:20 pm
January 29, 2010


Luke Maurits

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Luke Maurits said:

An unrelated thought I've had recently: the long and thin horizontal second pressure vessel under the main vessel in this diagram could just as easily be placed vertically behind the main pressure vessel.


Conept diagram for this arrangement:

mouse

Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.

10:38 pm
January 29, 2010


Rocket-To-The-Moon

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If we do go for a compressive suit (as I am certain that we will), it may be possible to wear it for the entire duration and just not tighten it up until the preparation for EVA.

Main Workgroups: Propulsion & Spacecraft Engineering

10:44 pm
January 29, 2010


Luke Maurits

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Rocket-To-The-Moon said:

If we do go for a compressive suit (as I am certain that we will), it may be possible to wear it for the entire duration and just not tighten it up until the preparation for EVA.


That would represent a huge saving on space.  I had wondered if this was possible or not, but I really don't know much about these suits.

Do you think we should have the astronaut pressure suited up during launch?  This seems to be fairly traditional (although it wasn't done on the Shuttle, I don't think, until after one of the disasters), although SpaceShipOne obviously didn't do it.

Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.

11:22 pm
January 29, 2010


Rocket-To-The-Moon

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I feel like it is sensible to suit up prior to launch. I don't think that the suit can be tight around the body though because that would severely limit blood circulation. What we need to do is get the opinion of someone who is familiar with these suits.

Main Workgroups: Propulsion & Spacecraft Engineering

12:23 am
January 30, 2010


Luke Maurits

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Doesn't brmj have a loose connection to Webb himself?  Through his father's tennis club or somesuch?  I can't remember where he said this but I'm sure he did at some stage.

Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.

12:00 am
January 31, 2010


brmj

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Luke Maurits said:Doesn't brmj have a loose connection to Webb himself?  Through his father's tennis club or somesuch?  I can't remember where he said this but I'm sure he did at some stage.


Yeah, I can get in touch with Paul Webb. You remembered more or less correctly; he does, in fact, play tennis with my dad.

If people want me to ask him stuff about the feasibility of this plan, compile a list of any non-obvious questions you want asked and I'll give him a call or email.

For what it's worth, I quite like the idea of having the astronaut be in their suit for the whole flight, and I think many other elements of the design we are discussing have merit. Also, a though on placement of electronics: There is potentially going to be some space to either side of our astronaut under side control panels. This seems like potential natural place for electronics pressure vessels, unless we decide it is better used for storage. Finally, one other thing: even if we go with Webb's suit design, there will still need to be a life-support backpack or similar for EVA which we will have to store somewhere. Make sure to leave room for it.

Main work groups: Propulsion (booster), Spacecraft Engineering, Computer Systems, Navigation and Guidance (software)

5:55 am
January 31, 2010


Luke Maurits

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brmj said:

For what it's worth, I quite like the idea of having the astronaut be in their suit for the whole flight, and I think many other elements of the design we are discussing have merit. Also, a though on placement of electronics: There is potentially going to be some space to either side of our astronaut under side control panels. This seems like potential natural place for electronics pressure vessels, unless we decide it is better used for storage. Finally, one other thing: even if we go with Webb's suit design, there will still need to be a life-support backpack or similar for EVA which we will have to store somewhere. Make sure to leave room for it.


Coincidentally enough, I had actually been thinking that the room to either side of the astronaut (which I think may actually be quite considerable, looking at diagrams of Mercury) might make an ideal place to store the EVA life-support backpack and, if we don't end up having it worn the entire trip, the EVA suit itself.  This would remove the need for a movable seat, which would enable a smaller capsule.  I feel like this would be a more sensible use of the side storage space than for electronics pressure vessels, since these could just as well be put in several other places.

I think that the idea of asking Webb for input on the feasibility of the suited-at-all-times approach is a good idea.  We should take our time, though, to think through all the relevant issues and make sure we can ask him everything we need to in a single, coherrent message.

Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.

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