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2:07 am December 11, 2009
| Luke Maurits
| | Adelaide, Australia | |
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| posts 1483 | |
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Here is a very simple conceptual diagram of my proposal for our modular booster unit, as discussed in this thread. Sorry it's so simple, I don't have Rocket's impressive SketchUp skills yet. Of course this diagram is not at all to scale.
 
Basically this diagrams shows that the body of the modular booster contains a number of thin hybrid engines (the exact number has been discussed briefly in the thread linked to earlier). This approach lets us keep the length:diameter ratio of the fuel grains high (which is good) and lets us use differential thrusting to control the booster in flight, rather than more mechanically complicated gimballing of a single nozzle.
At the top is an avionics module which contains, amongst other things, an inertial measurement unit which enables a small onboard computer to be aware of the module's altitude, velocity and orientation. This module is able to send control signals to the oxidiser valves and ignition units mid way down the body, so it can implement differential thrusting, attempt to restart stopped engines, or shut down all engines in an emergency situation (e.g. if the rocket is tilted say more than 10 or 20 degrees toward the ground than it is supposed to be at its current altitude, or if the rocket is tipping over very rapidly).
Optionally, there may be a parachute on top of the avionics unit so that we can recover the booster after burn out. The actual body of the booster would probably be damaged too much by the landing to reuse safely, but the avionics module or at least parts of it may survive. The oxidiser tanks would probably be reusable. The combustion chambers may or may not be refurbishable, we would have to see.
In clusterings of these modular boosters, like Selene 2 or 3, the avionics modules of the individual modular boosters would need to be able to communicate with one another, since differential thrusting would be implemented on entire modular boosters.
If everybody likes this idea, maybe we should update the Wiki and when Rocket gets time he could do a SketchUp rendering?
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Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.
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3:28 am December 11, 2009
| Luke Maurits
| | Adelaide, Australia | |
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| posts 1483 | |
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Post edited 9:30 am – December 11, 2009 by Luke Maurits
Thoughts on materials: I'm ridiculously unqualified to talk about this, but I figure having potentially wrong detailed plans makes us look more organised than a complete lack of details.
The outer shell of these modular boosters could be fairly weak, I think. The main shell is not containing any pressure and is not subject to high temperatures. It's really only there for aerodynamic purposes. The biggest concern would be keeping the structure light weight (and not too expensive). Maybe an aluminium frame with a thin steel skin? Some parts of the frame would need to be perhaps quite strong to avoid the individual engines breaking free and firing up out of the top of the shell, through our avionics. Titanium might work well here, but is probably expensive.
The combusion chambers of the individual engines are another story, these need to endure significant pressure and high temperature. I'm not sure what would be the best material to give this strength without being too heavy.
The oxidiser tanks need to withstand the pressure of the oxidiser inside them but no high temperatures. I think these may be a good candidate for some kind of composite material like carbon fibre, due to its light weight. SpaceShipOne has proven that composite tanks work alright for this sort of purpose. Ideally these tanks would be recoverable and reusable, so it's okay to spend a bit of money on them.
Thoughts?
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Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.
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3:38 pm December 11, 2009
| brmj
| | Rochester, New York, United States | |
| Member | posts 402 | |
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A thought on the combustion chamber's materials: I wonder if we could use off the shelf large diameter. Any idea how hot it is likely to get? I've been looking up data on that stuff, and some kinds are quite strong and tempurature resistant. I can't find very good info on this stuff, but what I have seen suggests "A106" steel may be worth looking at.
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Main work groups: Propulsion (booster), Spacecraft Engineering, Computer Systems, Navigation and Guidance (software)
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5:17 pm December 11, 2009
| Rocket-To-The-Moon
| | Altus, Oklahoma, USA | |
| Member | posts 685 | |
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This looks plausible. I assume that each modular booster would contain 7 individual hybrid motors (circle packing). So the Selene 3 would have 49 motors per stage and 147 motors for its three stages. I see the definite benefit of economies of scale and redundancy. Plus launching one Selene 3 essentially gives us 147 test burns. On the down side it does introduce a lot more control and performance monitoring sensors.
As for control via differential thrust, this is a great idea. One thing that I think is worth pointing out is that this could result in asymmetric weight distribution. Assuming that our guidance software knows this then I think it would be possible to even out the motors by throttling up the heavier ones while throttling down the lighter ones.
One issue that I have about the Selene 3 configuration is that the 3rd stage will have excessive thrust (acceleration) if all segments are burnt at once. Having the option to only burn a symmetrical configuration of boosters and then drop them would help (3rd stage only).
BTW, I am home now and my parents' internet is super slow. I will do what I can with what I have.
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Main Workgroups: Propulsion & Spacecraft Engineering
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5:46 pm December 11, 2009
| Luke Maurits
| | Adelaide, Australia | |
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| posts 1483 | |
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Rocket-To-The-Moon said:
I assume that each modular booster would contain 7 individual hybrid motors (circle packing).
This came up in the thread where I originally posted the idea: I think we should wait on deciding the number on motors until we have a better idea of how much thrust we can expect to get out of one. There is no point in maximising the volumetric efficiency with 7 of them if it turns out 4 will provide the amount of thrust that we want for an individual booster.
Also worth considering, if we have an even number of individual motors, we can compensate for one faiiling by throttling down the one that is radially opposite it – this will keep the overall thrust balanced. With 7 or any other odd number ofmotors, we could not do this.
As for thrust issues on Selene 3, well, this is the big problem with deciding how many modular boosters will go in each stage before we have thrust numbers. If we need less thrust in the final stage, we could consider either using a reducing conical adaptor between the second and third stages, so that the third stage is a cluster of, say, four modular boosters. Alternatively, if each modular booster is designed to hold an even number of engines, we could produce lower thrust versions by simply leaving every second engine slot empty (or mounting inert but massive "balast" rods in their places if we need more mass for stability). That would be another advantage of an even number of engines.
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Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.
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6:03 pm December 11, 2009
| brmj
| | Rochester, New York, United States | |
| Member | posts 402 | |
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Luke Maurits said:
Also worth considering, if we have an even number of individual motors, we can compensate for one faiiling by throttling down the one that is radially opposite it – this will keep the overall thrust balanced. With 7 or any other odd number ofmotors, we could not do this.
False. For a large, odd-numbered cluster, we could adjust a larger number of boosters by smaller amounts and simulate the same effect. It wouldn't be as easy, though.
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Main work groups: Propulsion (booster), Spacecraft Engineering, Computer Systems, Navigation and Guidance (software)
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6:12 pm December 11, 2009
| Luke Maurits
| | Adelaide, Australia | |
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| posts 1483 | |
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Ah, true enough. Scratch that as a compelling argument, then.
I still think the thrust output of individual engines will be the most important factor in determining the total number to cluster.
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Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.
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7:46 pm December 11, 2009
| brmj
| | Rochester, New York, United States | |
| Member | posts 402 | |
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On the whole, I'm not really sure whether or not this is a good idea. On one hand, it will increase our economies of scale and make each engine more manageable, but on the other it would make our overall design more complex and make our propellant mass fraction even worse than it already is, requiring a bigger rocket.
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Main work groups: Propulsion (booster), Spacecraft Engineering, Computer Systems, Navigation and Guidance (software)
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7:57 pm December 11, 2009
| Luke Maurits
| | Adelaide, Australia | |
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I'm not too sure what other arrangements could work. Having our modular booster be one big single hybrid engine would probably result in a lower length:diameter ratio than is ideal. There's also the complexity of gimballing. Admittedly, the differential thrusting for my proposal could get complex too with trying to keep weight evenly distributed and correct for malfunction motors – but that is algorithmic complexity, which is much more amenable to being subdued by distributed open source efforts than the mechanical complexity of gimballing.
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Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.
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8:14 pm December 11, 2009
| brmj
| | Rochester, New York, United States | |
| Member | posts 402 | |
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Agreed, adding gimbaling would suck. There might be an alternative, though, such as adding fins for single booster configurations, or perhaps figuring out a way to steer by directing the exhaust plasma around with electric or magnetic fields or something.
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Main work groups: Propulsion (booster), Spacecraft Engineering, Computer Systems, Navigation and Guidance (software)
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8:25 pm December 11, 2009
| Luke Maurits
| | Adelaide, Australia | |
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My main opposition to fins (aside from wondering how well they will work at higher altitudes and whether or not we will need them there) is one of the problems I have with gimballing – the knowledge is not reusable. Nozzle gimballing and fin control would both be acceptable solutions for single stage / low control rockets, but by the time we scale up to Selene 3 there would be more sensible options available (differential thrusting). I think we should avoid "wasting" effort on technology that we won't use a lot. The nice thing about this proposal is that differential thrusting is all we ever need – we can focus on learning to do one thing and do it well.
The electromagnetic steering option sounds very cool, but at first consideration I am skeptical that it could be made less complex than the many-engines-per-module proposal. Do you know of any commercial rockets that do this? Particularly chemical rockets? This would obviously be a great approach for ion engines, but with chemical rockets there are heat issues – what would we wind our coils from that is both a good electrical conductor, light weight and won't melt when in close proximity to a chemical rocket nozzle?
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Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.
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9:48 pm December 11, 2009
| Rocket-To-The-Moon
| | Altus, Oklahoma, USA | |
| Member | posts 685 | |
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brmj said:Agreed, adding gimbaling would suck. There might be an alternative, though, such as adding fins for single booster configurations, or perhaps figuring out a way to steer by directing the exhaust plasma around with electric or magnetic fields or something.
Fins won't work during low speed flight (just off the pad) or at high altitude. Steering with just thrust variation will probably be less responsive than pure gimballing.
The possibility exists that the Modular Booster could simply be a cluster of OHKLA motors assuming that they meet the thrust requirement.
Edit: on second thought the OHKLA motor will probably not have the required burn time. It takes the Space Shuttle around 8 minutes to get to orbit (The SSMEs burn for ~480 seconds). I think that we are willing to accept higher acceleration than the Space Shuttle which will reduce our burn time, but we are still looking at a couple minutes per stage. Given this it may make sense to have large single grain Modular Boosters after all.
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9:54 pm December 11, 2009
| Luke Maurits
| | Adelaide, Australia | |
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| posts 1483 | |
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Probably best to put this proposal on the "definitely worth considering later down the road" list and wait until we have some more motor experience from OHKLA or some good theoretical modelling abilities to see if it will work better than other proposals.
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Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.
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10:39 pm December 11, 2009
| brmj
| | Rochester, New York, United States | |
| Member | posts 402 | |
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Rocket-To-The-Moon said:
The possibility exists that the Modular Booster could simply be a cluster of OHKLA motors assuming that they meet the thrust requirement.
Edit: on second thought the OHKLA motor will probably not have the required burn time. It takes the Space Shuttle around 8 minutes to get to orbit (The SSMEs burn for ~480 seconds). I think that we are willing to accept higher acceleration than the Space Shuttle which will reduce our burn time, but we are still looking at a couple minutes per stage. Given this it may make sense to have large single grain Modular Boosters after all.
Maybe not OHKLA motors, but perhaps something derived from them. Anyway, hybrid motors tend to have a longer burn time but lower thrust than a comparable solid engine.
We can always go with single large grain motors and revise our plans to not launch them in anything smaller than bundles of three if we want them to be guided. I wouldn't be opposed to that, unless someone can think of a compelling reason not to.
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Main work groups: Propulsion (booster), Spacecraft Engineering, Computer Systems, Navigation and Guidance (software)
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11:11 pm December 16, 2009
| Luke Maurits
| | Adelaide, Australia | |
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| posts 1483 | |
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Just a quick idea to think about when/if we do revisit this concept later when we have some experience from OHKLA: Rather than having a cluster of individual oxidiser tanks above the cluster of fuel grains, with one for each engine, perhaps we could just have one large common tank with several valves on it.
Pros: More efficient use of space; Less mass contributed by oxidiser tank walls; Easier to fill the rocket with oxidiser before launch – just one tank instead of n.
Cons: If a fault is found with one of the valves, the entire common tank may need to be swapped out for another one, as opposed to just one of the individual tanks.
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Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.
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8:00 am December 17, 2009
| Rocket-To-The-Moon
| | Altus, Oklahoma, USA | |
| Member | posts 685 | |
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Post edited 2:01 pm – December 17, 2009 by Rocket-To-The-Moon
The common oxidizer tank idea is a good one. What this would essentially produce is a multi-port hybrid that has separate combustion chambers. Although separate combustion chambers are not the most efficient from a mass standpoint it will hopefully be cheaper to produce (30cm grains as opposed to 1m+ grains [estimate numbers]).
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Main Workgroups: Propulsion & Spacecraft Engineering
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