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Booster fuel thoughts

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3:58 am
December 3, 2009


Luke Maurits

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While I would still really like to see the previously discussed booster "burst" go ahead if we can find a convenient time, I've been unable to keep myself from thinking about these issues for a while, so here's a quick dump of mymental cache.

I have reluctantly decided to stop thinking too seriously about solid fuelled rockets.  The simplicity of their operation is very appealing and in the fullest accordance with our design philosophies, but in addition to the poorer performance I am really concerned about acquiring fuel.  It seems pretty certain that we would have to make it ourselves, which is not simple and perhaps not safe.  It's also a costly thing to get wrong.  Defects in the grain can cause explosions, which is not a good thing.

After first realising this, I started to think about liquid.  These aren't as scary as I first thought.  Obviously, turbopump powered solutions are absolutely out of the question due to massive cost and complexity.  But systems involving pressurised gas are conceptually fairly simple – knowing a bit more about rocketry now I can really appreciate that the OTRAG rockets were very elegant and simple designs.

However, while I'm now convinced we could handle the actual rocket part of a liquid fuelled rocket, I'm not happy about the fuels themselves.  I have not yet found a combination of liquid fuel and liquid oxidiser which satisfy:

  • Good enough performance to feasibly get us to orbit
  • Liquid at a reasonable temperature
  • Non-toxic, non-carcinogenic, etc.
  • Not violently reactive when exposed to routine things like water, air

I'd really like to meet all of these criteria.  Liquids that require really special storage and transport practices because they are extremely low temperature or dangerous or anything like that will just make life that much harder for us.  All our equipment will be more expensive, we may have to pay for licenses, insurance, etc.  It would be fantastic if we could find fairly safe, easy to handle, easy to store liquids for our rocket but I'm just not seeing any out there.  I would love to be proven wrong on this.

This brings us to hybrid engines, which are inbetween solid and liquid for complexity.  There is still the issue of having to cast our own fuel grain, but thankfully this seems a lot easier in the hybrid case.  For one thing, grain defects do not cause catastrophic failure in hybrid engines.  For another, it turns out that we can use a really common and convenient fuel in a hybrid engine – parrafin!  In wax form.  This is quite cheap and quite safe and apparently performance is better than you'd ever expect.  Here is a NASA article discussing a 2004 test burn of a parrafin – gaseous oxygen hybrid engine which produced over 5000 lb of thrust (22 kN)!

Hybrid rockets seem to be of increasing interest and they have shown promise (SpaceshipOne used one).  They haven't been explored anywhere near as much as liquid or solid solutions, which in some sense is off putting, but on the other hand it means that there could be significant improvements just waiting to be discovered.  They seem like an excellent compromise between solid and liquid and I think we should seriously consider them.

Thoughts?

Starting a new TA job next week, might be busy for a while! Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.

4:03 am
December 3, 2009


Luke Maurits

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Post edited 10:38 am – December 3, 2009 by Luke Maurits


Here's a nice poster showing the delightfully simple construction of Spaceship One's hybrid rocket engine.

Here's a more detailed write up of NASA's experiments with paraffin fuelled hybrid rockets.  They literally bought their fuel from an online candle wax distributor.  It may take us some R&D time to replicate the particular spray effect they are utilising, but I suspect that this fuel will be so much cheaper than anything else we could use that the time will quickly pay for itself.

Starting a new TA job next week, might be busy for a while! Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.

1:04 pm
December 3, 2009


brmj

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About the fuels concern: I wonder if we could use nitrous oxide as the oxidizer in a liquid-fueled rocket. It is safe, reasonably cheep and can be stored under relatively low pressure conditions. As an added bonus, it is self-pressurizing and can be readily decomposed into nitrogen and oxygen for breathing air.

Secondly, I don't think fuming nitrous acid is quite as problematic as some. Sure, it eats through many metals and auto-ignites with turpentine, among other things, but it can be handled at reasonable temperatures and it is safe enough to be used extensively in industry. Don't get me wrong; many accidents involving it could be absolutely disastrous. However, I think we could probably work with it if we needed to.


Over all, though, I think hybrid rockets might be the "sweet spot" for us, if we don't feel like handleing liquified, low tempurature gasses, strong acids or things that react explosively with test engineers. Nitrous oxide as the oxidyzer seems like bassically a no-brainer. For the fuel, parraffin is certainly worth considering, especially if we found some high-energy content additives to mix in.


A thought about nitrus oxide oxydizers: There are companies that sell turn-key nitrous oxide plants in a veriaty of sizes. Such a set-up might be worth looking into eventually, depending on how long it would take to pay for itself.

Main work groups: Propulsion (booster), Spacecraft Engineering, Computer Systems, Navigation and Guidance (software)

11:53 pm
December 3, 2009


Luke Maurits

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Regarding the possibility of using N2O as an oxidiser in liquid fuel rockets: I don't know anywhere near enough chemistry to know what makes particular oxidisers suitable or unsuitable for use with particular fuels.  However, Wikipedia has an excellent, large table of liquid fuel-oxidiser combos and various measurements of how well they work.  N2O doesn't appear in the oxidiser list at all.  Various other nitrogen-based molecules do, but they all seem rather nasty.  I could find any pairs on that table where at least one of them wasn't an effort or danger to handle, but I wasn't too thorough about it so I could have overlooked one.

The absence of N2O from that list doesn't necessarily mean it cannot work, of ourse.  It may just be uncommon for some reason.  We'll need to either find ourselves a combustion chemist or do some research of our own to find out.

As you've probably seen, though, N2O oxidisers are really common in the hybrid realm.  I agree that N2O seems like a really obvious choice for so many reasons, the fact that it seems to be the de facto standard for hybrids makes them seem all that more attractive to me.

The idea of adding high energy additives to the paraffin is an excellent one.  With the (currently more common) rubber and plastic based solid hybrid fuels, it seems a common process to put certain metals, like magnesium or aluminium, in for this purpose.  I don't know if they would work as well in a paraffin solution or if we should look at options.  Once again, a combustion chemist would be an awesome asset about now.

Youtube seems to abound with videos of people testing very small, very crude home built hyrbid rockets in vices.  The standard thing to do seems to be to use gaseous oxygen as the oxidiser because you can buy ready-to-go cylinders of it from medical suppliers.  I've seen people use paraffin and various plastics as fuels.  They certainly seem to burn well enough, the failures (and most videos are of failures) inevitable are due to amateur construction – steel nozzles melting through or poor gas plumbing causing leaks or blowback.  At any rate, it seems likely we can start out relatively small and slowly gain experience with hybrid techniques (although of course we should read, read, read as we do so rather than relying on trial and error).

I am pretty sold on hybrids at this stage but since it is such a huge decision I'd love to have somebody play devil's adcovate and give me a good case for why the material handling complexities of the liquid option aren't as bad as I've made them out to be and point of potential shortcomings of the hybrid route.

Starting a new TA job next week, might be busy for a while! Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.

4:37 am
December 4, 2009


Luke Maurits

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Post edited 10:48 am – December 4, 2009 by Luke Maurits


Some nifty links on hybrid motors:

There definitely seems to be some excitement around hybrid motors at the moment, a sense that they could be an important disruptive technology in the newly expanding private space industry.  The second link above reaffirms my dedication to the idea that nitrous oxide would make for a great propellant.  It does mention an N2O related explosion at Scaled Composites, though – we should investigate the cause of that and make sure we learn from it.

Starting a new TA job next week, might be busy for a while! Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.

12:04 pm
December 4, 2009


brmj

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Good stuff. I read all of that, and this is actually looking easier than I expected, if anything. Personally, I think we may want to start experimenting with small hybrid rockets before too long, mostly to get a feel for how they work and test building materials and fuel chemistrys.


Main work groups: Propulsion (booster), Spacecraft Engineering, Computer Systems, Navigation and Guidance (software)

7:36 pm
December 4, 2009


Luke Maurits

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I just noticed that the New Zealander rocket that Rocket posted about recently used (according to the makers' site) used a hybrid engine with nitrous oxide as the oxidiser and a polymer solid fuel.  This is hard proof that the sort of design we have been talking about here is capable of getting into space – cheap, safe and easy to handle fuels really are all you need.  In light of this, I think it would be madness for a team of our current size and (more importantly) financial situation to attempt anything involving cryogenic fuels, powerful acids, unstable explosives or the like.  It will take a lot to persuade me to consider non-hybrid options now.  Any takers?

Starting a new TA job next week, might be busy for a while! Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.

8:03 pm
December 4, 2009


Rocket-To-The-Moon

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Post edited 2:11 am – December 5, 2009 by Rocket-To-The-Moon


I fully support the decision to go with a hybrid rocket. Do we have any information about the largest hybrid rocket built? Assuming that we use a clustered configuration like the Selene 3 we should probably aim to produce a modular booster in the 200-270 kilonewton thrust class (50-60,000lb thrust). I chose these numbers based on the total thrust of the Titan II booster (1900 kilonewton/430,000lb thrust) that put Gemini in Orbit. The Titan II was capable of putting about 3,600kg/7,900lbs into LEO. If we can get the CM down to 1000kg then we would be left with up to 2600kg of propellant for the "bus"/p>

So we can let the solid fueled booster die, I have just one last piece of input that may be worth considering. There is an abundance of amateur rocket builders who have a lot of experience working with solid fueled rockets. I'm sure that a lot of their general knowledge would transfer, but a lot of their fine tuned propulsion knowledge would be lost on this project if we decide to go with a hybrid rocket. With that being said, I'm sure that they are up to the challenge.

Swamped with work & school at the moment. Main Workgroups: Propulsion & Spacecraft Engineering

8:25 pm
December 4, 2009


Luke Maurits

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Your point about amateur rocketeers having a wealth of solid fuel knowledge we won't be able to benefit from is a good one, and it's unfortunate, but I really don't think that their knowledge can scale up to orbital challenges.  Of course, it is possible to get into space on a purely solid fuel rocket, you've posted links to ICBMs proving that, but for us to do it would involve manufacturing our own very large fuel grains, and the amateur rocketry community probably knows very little about doing that, at least on the scales we would be interested in, since they have the luxury of being able to buy their own premade grains.

I guess it's official, then.  Hybrid it is!  Time to update the Wiki!  Do we want to make the nitrous oxide choice "official" too, or leave that open for now?

I have been thinking about each workgroup having its own FAQ on the Wiki to address basic technical questions that are beyond the scope of the CSTART FAQ.  When people first come to CSTART and want to see what we are planning, the question "why a hybrid engine?" is going to be one of the first things they want to know more about.  There should be an obvious place to find an answer.

Starting a new TA job next week, might be busy for a while! Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.

8:28 pm
December 4, 2009


Rocket-To-The-Moon

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I'm drawing up a concept hybrid booster right now in SketchUp. The Selene series rockets remain the same, but I'm adding some details inside the modular boosters.

Swamped with work & school at the moment. Main Workgroups: Propulsion & Spacecraft Engineering

9:01 pm
December 4, 2009


brmj

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I suspect we will need to adjust our mass numbers up from your Titan II estimate. Sure, we might be able to keep everything that light, but I suspect it won't be possible. Of course, to figure all of this out we will need decent estimates for our CM and orbital bus combo.

Main work groups: Propulsion (booster), Spacecraft Engineering, Computer Systems, Navigation and Guidance (software)

9:22 pm
December 4, 2009


Luke Maurits

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I am worried we may need to have more, weaker boosters than the current Selene concept diagrams call for.

Just looking at the pdf linked to above, on page 7, it mentions a few 250 klb thrust hybrid rockets, so 50 klb is certainly achievable, but I am betting they are very large rockets and are using LOX as an oxidiser.  SpaceShipOne's rocket (according to the same page of the pdf) put out 20 klb of thrust.  To hit 50 klb like our current configuration requires would involve more than doubling their thrust.  That may be possible by using a paraffin fuel solution instead of their rubber solution (since paraffin fuels demonstrate the odd effect where fast flowing oxidiser whips up a fine spray of liquified fuel, which burns very fast), but it will be a challenge.  It would probably be more realistic to assume we can roughly match that and double or so our number of modular boosters.

Perhaps I am being pessimistic, though.

Starting a new TA job next week, might be busy for a while! Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.

9:28 pm
December 4, 2009


Rocket-To-The-Moon

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I think that our current modular booster design has the ability to scale much larger than Space Ship One's motor. The booster itself is about 10 meters tall and 1.15 meters in diameter.

Swamped with work & school at the moment. Main Workgroups: Propulsion & Spacecraft Engineering

9:44 pm
December 4, 2009


Luke Maurits

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I feel a little uncomfortable about having hard numbers attached to the booster's size at this stage when we effectively know nothing about its construction or the behaviour of the rocket engine it contains.  It may be harder to cast grains above a certain diameter, for instance.  For a given grain mass, a certain amount of oxidiser would be best, and the dimensions of the oxidiser tank will affect the pressure that oxidiser is stored at, which we may wish to exercise some principled control over.  Deciding on booster size now and then building the engine to fit may end up giving us sub-optimal performance over all.

Starting a new TA job next week, might be busy for a while! Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.

9:48 pm
December 4, 2009


Rocket-To-The-Moon

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These are all ballpark figures. The engineering data later on will get everything sized appropriately but I'm just trying to convey the approximate size of what we are dealing with (e.g. the booster is bigger than Space Ship One so it should be able to produce more thrust ect.) I'll be more careful not to throw around numbers without stating that they are estimates.

Swamped with work & school at the moment. Main Workgroups: Propulsion & Spacecraft Engineering

10:01 pm
December 4, 2009


Rocket-To-The-Moon

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Luke Maurits said:

Just looking at the pdf linked to above, on page 7, it mentions a few 250 klb thrust hybrid rockets, so 50 klb is certainly achievable, but I am betting they are very large rockets and are using LOX as an oxidizer.


On that same page it mentions a 24″ rocket that produced 60,000lb thrust. It looks like we are thinking along the correct scale.

Swamped with work & school at the moment. Main Workgroups: Propulsion & Spacecraft Engineering

10:05 pm
December 4, 2009


Luke Maurits

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Ah, very true, an embarassing oversight for me.  Note, however, that it was a LOX engine.  LOX is a higher performance oxidiser than N2O is, although I don't have a good sense how much higher.  It is encouraging, nevertheless.

Potentially stupid question from a non-American, 24″ is 24 feet, right?  If so, that's about 8 meters, so we do indeed seem to be on about the correct scale.  Even accounting for the decreased performance of N2O, if we went a little higher to 10 meters we should easily be able to break 50 klb thrust.

Starting a new TA job next week, might be busy for a while! Main CLLARE workgroups: Mission Planning, Navigation and Guidance. I do maths, physics, C, Python and Java.

10:10 pm
December 4, 2009


Rocket-To-The-Moon

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The quote mark denotes inches so it is 24 inches in diameter (I can only assume since it does not state that it is diameter, but it is the only paramater that makes sense in the context).

Swamped with work & school at the moment. Main Workgroups: Propulsion & Spacecraft Engineering

2:13 am
December 5, 2009


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Post edited 9:10 am – December 5, 2009 by noumena


Hybrid rocket solution :-) Why didn't we think of this earlier?

It's cheap, proven, non-toxic. Procter and Gamble, Arm and Hammer, and Heinz could sponsor us. Fool proof!


' is feet " is inches



PS- Of course the obligatory theme music. This song is even more over used than "your mother" jokes in middle school locker rooms.

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